SHOULD NICK CLEGG HAVE SACKED JENNY TONGE?

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg has sacked controversial peer Jenny Tonge as the party’s health spokesperson in the Lords over her demands for an investigation into allegations of body parts harvesting by the Israeli Defence force in Haiti. Her remarks followed an article making the accusations in the online journal Palestine Telegraph, of which Baroness Tonge is a patron. Was this an overreaction by Clegg? Or has it been a long time coming?

Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

Yes, because... This is the last straw

 

This isn't the first time Jenny Tonge has caused this kind of row. First she expressed her desire to be a suicide bomber, she's been on the antisemitic Press TV, and she said Jews in Britain should be ashamed of the actions of Israel. Nick Clegg has defended her, but his loyalty is misplaced. She has smeared Israel, and her reported repentance for it rings hollow in the light of her latest outburst. It is the last straw. The time has come for Clegg to demonstrate that her demonisation of Israel and her apparent prejudice towards Jews will no longer be tolerated. In so doing he may redeem his own record of perceived hostility to the Jewish State.

Frankly, Clegg and the various LibDem leaders before him have amply illustrated their support for Tonge and her vile prejudices. They are rightly perceived as a party inimical to the Jewish state and deserve Tonge as their mascot.

 

It isn't fair that her allegations are judged without scrutiny or investigation.

When someone stakes a claim it should looked into; she should not have been sacked without evidence that the claim was false.

When a large faction of anti-Israel/anti-Zionism fanatics are Jews/Rabbis themselves the idea that it's anti-Semitic becomes hard to digest.

 

Vote on this point: This is the last straw

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Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

Yes, because... It isn't enough

 

Clegg has not gone far enough. Look at the Palestine Telegraph, of which Tonge is a Patron. It carries articles which are so antisemitic that they could appear on the David Duke or Stormfront website. Clegg should have thrown her out of the LibDem party as well. Her latest remarks blaming the Zionists and the Israel lobby prove she is incorrigible. She has previously stated that Jews should be ashamed of Israel's actions, so it is clear she is linking Jews with Zionists and is now employing the word Zionist as a fig-leaf for what might charitably be interpreted as an ambivalent attitude to Jews. There appear to be some among the Lib Dems, to judge from comments on the party website regarding this issue, who seem to believe that offending the Jewish community with what is tantamount to a Blood Libel can be tolerated by the party, since the number of Jews in this country is relatively very small. That argument is illiberal, unworthy of a party with Liberal in its title; it is reprehensibly cynical and immoral, and if Mr Clegg has any moral backbone he will now dismiss the recalcitrant baroness from his party altogether.

 

Throwing people out of the lib dem party for supporting Palestine would be very counterproductive. While there are few who would support the line that the Palestine Telegraph takes many people would support their right to take that line if they wish. (admittedly having only read a few articles) they do not seem to be overtly anti semitic (although they are more overtly anti israel but this should not be surprising). There are a great many people who think that Israel goes too far in its actions against the palestinians and this does not make them anti-semitic, Israel seems to be determined that being anti Israel (or even anti settlers) makes someone anti semitic which is wrong.

The Palestinian Telegraph article can indeed seen as 'blood libel' however it should not be an issue for in the Tonge case. She did not endorse the article simply called for an investigation which to me seems to be something quite different. Surely most people reading the article would be alarmed by what it says and ask is it true? That kind of question needs evidence one way or the other. At the moment there are simply unsubstantiated claims with absolutely NO evidence whatsoever beind them. That does not mean that there should not be an investigation to prove that it is completely false. Simply accusing the other side and preventing such an investigation while silencing someone who obviosuly wants such an investigation does not help. Such an investigation would however probably be best as an overall (worldwide) investigation into human trafficing and organ donations, this would likely save lives rather than an investigation focusing on Israel which would simply be using up time to show that the accusation really is groundless.

 

Vote on this point: It isn't enough

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Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

Yes, because... Patron of the Palestinian Telegraph

 

Being the patron of the Palestinian Telegraph implies that she supports the actual accusations rather than just wanting an inquiry into the accusations. If this is the case then Nick Clegg is correct that “The comments were wrong, distasteful and provocative".

 

And sacking her only adds to the provocation,does it not?

If a person is fired for expressing her views; her fundamental right to freedom of speech then that is 'wrong,distasteful and provocative' ; not to mention the question of her statements not even being looked into.

 

Vote on this point: Patron of the Palestinian Telegraph

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Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

Yes, because... Only an antisemite would take the accusation of organ harvesting seriously enough to suggest an investigation

 

Being an antisemite doesn't mean being a not nice person. Many antisemites don't understand why they're labelled as such.

A main feature of antisemites is not being bad, but having crazy ideas about Jews. Like you do. I saw a book claiming Jews are aliens. Supposedly some Christians believe Jews have horns because they're descended from the Devil; I'm sure many of those Christians are very nice fine people. But their views are not only offensve, but dangerous - 'demonizing' Jews lays the groundwork for others to oppress, expell and exterminate.

Many people believe that all successful Jews in the world are united in an attempt to achieve world domination. And many people who believe this feel that they are simply being complimentary to the Jews who are so clever in being able to do this. And they're shocked to be called antisemites.

Giving credibility to the original Palestinian claims that the IDF killed civilians to harvest organs makes one an antisemite. The claims that the Israeli team in Haiti harvested organs is a direct derivative of the original Palestinian claim, and taking it seriously enough to think it needs rebuttal is a sign of an antisemitic mind – people who are not antisemitic would realize it is an absurd claim and not think it even worthy of rebuttal.

I hope this helps you understand why many people think you are an antisemite for making that comment. But maybe you are still a nice person. Nevertheless you don't belong in a leading position in a party meant to represent wide swaths of the public, including Jews

 

so you're saying that only an Anti-Semitic can ever hold an Israeli wrong; that all Anti-Zionist Jews are anti-Semitic?? that anyone(even an Israeli) who accuses an Israeli of murder/theft/rape/any-other-crime is racist?

What is the Israeli crime-rate? don't tell me no Israeli has ever been accused of a single crime/wrong without the accuser being locked up for being Anti-Semitic.

You dont need to have crazy ideas about jews to think that occasionally the Israeli state does things it should not. All states do, and the Israeli state probably more than many because it is in an almost perminant state of semi-war. The USA has been undermining liberties and engaging in questionable practices during the war on terror for the last 9 years, however the Israeli state has been in a similar position for over half a century. This means that wrongs are bound to build up and some people need to occasionally point out that israel is doing things wrong. In this case a so far ungrounded claim, but it does not mean that Jenny Tonge believes jews have horns, are aliens or are attempting to achieve world domination.

Asking for an investigation does not have to mean that they are giving credibility to a claim. Just as many investigations are done because someone believes the claim is wrong but believes there needs to be an investigation to prove that this is the case. It is often for example the recourse of governments when they are challenged, launch an investigation to clear things up (and often bury the issue under the carpet but that is seperate from this).

 

Vote on this point: Only an antisemite would take the accusation of organ harvesting seriously enough to suggest an investigation

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Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

Yes, because... An investigation is only needed if there is a doubt

 

Baroness Tonge calling for an investigation implies that in her mind there is something to investigate. ie she believes that it is credible that the Israelis were out in Haiti, not to save lives as everyone else thinks, but to harvest organs.

To make a comparison, would it be a good idea to have the Liberal party investigate the claim that Baroness Tonge eats babies for breakfast? Surely it would <i>help</i> the Baroness to dispell any question as to whether these terrible accusations are true? She should welcome it - and if she doesn't that might imply a cover-up and a guilty conscience. Of course it would be necessary to interview all members of her household, bring in the UN, and film the baroness having breakfast for at least a year - but if it cleared up this foul accusation then it would be Liberal Party money well spent. No...?

 

who decides if there is doubt?

In Britain that would be the police and then the Crown Prosecution Service. If they decide to investigate and then prosicute Jenny Tonge for eating babies for breakfast then I am sure the money is worth while, it would not be worthwhile for the liberal democrats as they dont have the relevent skills/authority. I imagine Haiti had something similar though whether it is functioning is another matter.

 

Vote on this point: An investigation is only needed if there is a doubt

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Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

Yes, because... Organised Campaign

 

Dr Jenny Tonge is part of an organised campaign not only to delegitimize Israel but also all Jewish People.

It says in the Bible that there is nothing new under the sun.

This campaign of delegitimization has been going on for years. What is very different now is that Dr. Jenny Tonge (as well as others) wants to bring this campaign which is well organised and financed campaign into the mainstream of British Politics. Previously it was waged by the far left and their allies.

Her campaign of delegitimization is damaging to the Liberal Democratic Party. It is also damaging to all Jewish People. Nick Clegg should sack Dr. Jenny Tonge. If he does not, then it will be seen by many that Nick Clegg is endorsing this ongoing campaign of delegitimization.

I can understand the case for freedom of speech but when it comes to an organised campaign to delegitimize a people then should those freedoms still apply?

Whilst we have the moral high ground and dont discriminate (against other peoples and religions) others do.

 

Being part of a campaign to deligitimise israel (depending on what that means) does not seem to me be a sackable offence, many people are members of many campaigns wanting all sorts of things under the sun. It is part of our culture that we should not be discriminated against for being part of those movements/campaigns. If she was part of a campaign demanding that Israel keeps all its occupied terretories should she have been sacked? I personally dont think so, I still dont think so if she was part of a campaign advocating moving all Palestinians to Jordan.

 

Vote on this point: Organised Campaign

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Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

Yes, because... Baroness Tonge is a registered doctor and needs to follow the duties of a doctor set out by the General Medical Council. She should face a fitness to practice hearing at the General Medical Council because of her allegations

 

Her probity is now in question, following her outrageous accusations. This will need investigation by the General Medical Council. She has also brought the medical profession into disrepute with her lies about the role of Israeli doctors in Haiti.

 
 

Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

 

No, because... This is a set up

politics is all about being careful with words; maybe ms.Tonge should stick to human-rights on a grass-root-level if she's that passionate about the Gaza issue; rather than abusing her platform to propagate rumors/flighty-but-serious-accusations that may/may-not check out.

A spokesperson should at least be responsible with words.

 

No-one really believes that Jenny Tonge thinks that the IDF stole organs in Haiti, she probably thought she was expressing support. She's been a great spokeswoman for the people of Gaza and her career is ruined through one slip of the tongue. It would be different if she's said they actually DONE it. Nick Clegg should be more understanding.

 

Vote on this point: This is a set up

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Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

 

No, because... controversy is the job

There is however a party whip and a party line that should be followed. Tonge has gone against the party's viewpoint by the demand for an investigation and so has embarassed the lib dem party so it is right that she should be fired from her position within that party. This does not mean that her freedom of speach is affected.

 

Dont we have MPs and political parties to express their views openly and freely? Regardless of whether she thinks the IDF was engaged in such practices does not invalidate a comment that there should be an inquiry. Thinking there should be an inquiry is a totally different thing to thinking it is true, it seems to be the response of a questioning mind, precicely what we have parliament for. Nick Clegg has just gone and shot the lib dems in the foot by proving that they do not support free speach.

 

Vote on this point: controversy is the job

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Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

 

No, because... overeaction

This is the kind of sensationalist story that picks up anyway. If people who are in authority are seen to want such trash reporting to be acted on as Tonge did by wanting an investigation then the story gains additional traction. In this case it was up to the lib dems to put down the article by sacking Jenny. If Tonge had not been sacked then it would have been lending some credibility to such a viewpoint, Clegg had no choice in the matter, she had to go.

 

Sacking Baronness tonge is an overeaction that simply publicises a wacky story that would be best ignored by everyone. Firing those who ask for an investigation makes people think that there is a cover up so increasing suspicions that the claim is actually true. In this case many people will who will not have a clue what the initial claims are about will simply think that Tonge has been fired for being anti Israeli so helping to substantiate claims that there is some immense israeli or zionist lobby across the west including in British politics.

 

Vote on this point: overeaction

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Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

 

No, because... This is a witchhunt

It seems unlikely that the leader of the liberal democrats is engaged in a witch hunt against his own members. It is Nick Clegg who has sacked Jenny Tonge not the editor of the JC.

 

Jenny Tonge is a well known supporter of the Palestinian cause. To the right wing this makes her an 'anti semite', 'a troll', a 'terrorist lover' and all the usual name calling that the war crime supporters throw at those who question the morality and legality of the occupation.

The editor of the JC has, on more than one occasion, referred to Jenny Tonge as 'Jihad' Jenny - so that sums up the JC's impartiallity

Stop howling down those who oppose the occupation and the brutalisation of the Palestinians by Israel. It won't stop the criticism, all it does is accentuate the paucity of your arguments.

 

Vote on this point: This is a witchhunt

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Vote on this debate: Should Nick Clegg have sacked Jenny Tonge?

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